Making Change Work: Veronica LaFemina on Leadership, Clarity, and Staying in the Work

Nicole Jamrozinski: [00:00:00] Hi, Veronica. Thank you so much for joining me today to hear a little bit about your nonprofit journey. 

Veronica LaFemina: Hey, Nicole. It’s great to be with you. 

Nicole Jamrozinski: Thank you. Thank you. So if you could please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your non-profit journey. What led you into this work and what keeps you inspired today?

Veronica LaFemina: I’d love to. Um, so I’m Veronica Lamina. I’m the CEO of Lamina and Co. And we’re an advisory firm that works with usually established nonprofits and foundations on both their strategic direction as an organization, you know, how are we going to. Go forward in this work. Um, often that’s facilitating important and maybe challenging conversations among boards and executive teams.

Um, and I also do a significant amount of training, um, and coaching around what does it look like to lead change? Well. In our sector. Um, I came into this work after 20 plus years of working in and [00:01:00] around nonprofits here in the United States. Um, I sometimes joke that I was born into a family where, like services in our blood, um, I, you know, was going on.

Service projects and involved with nonprofits from a very young age. Thanks to, uh, the influence of my grandfather and, and my grandmother and my parents. It was just how we operated as a family. Um, and so in my career that has looked like working with nonprofits and the federal government, and.

Associations, uh, and corporations on, um, change communications work, strategic communications. How do we help people pay attention to really important causes in our communities and our country worldwide? Um, and then from there I went in-house to two different national nonprofits here in the us. Um, focused on voluntary health, health related, um, causes or disease specific causes.

Uh, and in that [00:02:00] work I got really into the weeds about what does it take to make these big causes into a reality by ensuring that the people who power this work within an organization have what they need to advance the movement. Um, and so I’ve done that as a communications executive at national organizations.

Moved into strategy work and a lot of internal change management work to say, um, we have these big, beautiful ideas. How do we make them? So, uh, and really from there have developed, um, some of my work and frameworks around how do we make it easier to a, define our strategy successfully so that it’s not just something that executives or, um.

You know, folks up here understanding, but that our staff and supporters can really get it, uh, and get what we’re trying to do. Um, and then also saying how do we equip leaders in purpose-driven organizations with the right [00:03:00] kind of, um, professional development like knowledge and practice and support to be able to help people move through times of change.

Whether that’s transformation that we’re proactively taking on as an organization or it’s change that’s happening to us. Um, while we are a very people driven sector and we serve a lot of people, we’re not always great at understand understanding people, like what do we actually need in times of change?

Um, and so I’ve spent a lot of, you know, probably the past decade of my career saying there’s gotta be an easier way. To do this, um, and there’s so much good to be done and so much important work to be done. What does it take, what do people in need? What do leaders need to be able to help their teams through these situations rather than, you know, continuing to get frustrated that we have these big ideas and we make a big announcement and then it doesn’t go anywhere because we haven’t really spent the time to.

Set up the environment or provide the [00:04:00] right kind of information and training and support so that our teams can be successful. So I’m very much a, a practitioner in the realm of how do we make it as easy as possible to do the good work we wanna do so we can build that beautiful. Cooperative community and world we want to live in together.

Nicole Jamrozinski: It’s like that strategic plan that sits, you spend all this time brainstorming sessions. Mm-hmm. And then I just on the shelf, I love that you, a part of your work is around coaching leadership on how to bring the community in and bringing staff in and the donors and volunteers like I think that is often.

Overlooked, in my experience anyways, I’ve been in organizations where a lot of information was held at that leadership level, but not in a meaningful way handed down to, or, um, that the actual, some of the, the staff [00:05:00] had like the agency to be part of it. And I think that is a really fundamental part in helping an organization sing.

So I, I love that that’s an area of focus that you, you focus on. Okay. So I’m curious with all of those things, ’cause you, you do a lot of really cool work there. What part of the work lights you up the most? Is there a story or project that reminds you of why you do what you do? 

Veronica LaFemina: Um, I’m fortunate to work with executive leaders and senior leadership teams across a lot of different contexts and a lot of different issues.

Um, I often get the chance to work with really technically complex organizations who are doing a massively important behind the scenes work that you wouldn’t hear about because it’s not necessarily easy to sum up in a social media clip or, um, you know, an equipped press release. And so. What I love about the work is that our sector is full of amazing humans, right?

I [00:06:00] love getting to hear the stories and understand the path of the leaders in our sector and then helping them. Get the right support so they can connect the dots for their teams. You know, I think you said something really important, Nicole, which is we need to find meaningful and productive ways to involve our teams and our communities.

A lot of organizations, a lot of leaders I know want to do this, but there are ways where we may be trying to, but the effect is not what we’re hoping to get out of the situation, right? We’re trying to be transparent, but. We’re doing it in a way that’s actually giving people more agita rather than like helping them come along or understand the most important parts of this, you know, journey or change or moment for them.

And so I really love being able to sit with leaders who are, who’ve been at this work a while, and to help them, you know, have these kind of discovery moments of like, oh, that is a [00:07:00] barrier. For me and my team, how can we address it together? I’m watching them be able to take it on in a new way. Um, leadership is actually really lonely in this sector, right?

There is a lot of content and information that kind of vilifies leaders in our sector, in our sector, and tells them all the ways they could be doing things better, but it’s a hard job. No one’s really telling you you’re doing great. It can be lonely. You’re navigating ensuring your staff has what they need and ensuring the board has what they need.

Um, and so it’s a role where there often isn’t enough support to help leaders have those moments and think through how do I wanna handle this? Given the context, uh, of what’s happening. And there’s often not like kind of. The right kind of professional development or sup support or content. There might be sort of general support on like managing people or how, you know, coaching on, um, how to be a good leader.

But that doesn’t always translate to what’s the most effective way [00:08:00] for us to do this together as an organization. Um, and so for me, being able to see leaders who are already. Doing great work. They’re conscientious, they want what’s best for their teams, but they recognize like they don’t have all the answers.

And watching them get that support and then being able to translate it into having great conversations about are expectations realistic. Are the plans we’re making something that we can actually commit to? Are we willing to give ourselves the space and time to do things with more impact? Because we’re not trying to meet an arbitrary three to five year, here’s what we’re gonna accomplish.

Are we planning well for our capacity and for what we do best as an organization? And so. You know, I work so much in that upstream space, so then when I hear from leaders a year or two down the line, and they’re able to really like be so [00:09:00] proud of the downstream, you know, effectiveness and accomplishments and the way the team is working together, that for me is just the best part of the work because it’s not.

Always easy to make the choice that we’re gonna invest in this, right? Whether we have funders who wanna see immediate results or corporate partners who are looking for like impact they can share this year. Um, oftentimes we, we need more time. We need more space to really choose effectively where to head next.

And so watching leaders be brave and then follow through on that promise rather than treating it like a, a checklist, uh, is definitely for me, you know? So important, especially in our sector, that we’re losing staff. You know, we’re losing permanent employees much faster than other industries. Um, we’re leaving for good.

And so like as we can develop better ways of working and really understanding like our people powered sector and what that [00:10:00] means to. Bring people through change instead of just expecting that a checklist is gonna do the trick. Um, those all give me a lot of energy about what’s possible and that we can choose more sustainable, more effective, better paths forward.

Nicole Jamrozinski: Yeah, and I think a leader is really, they’re the ones who really empower their staff and their teams as well. So when a leader finds their groove and. Can help amplify the work that their team is doing. It just, it feels more collaborative. It feels like you can all actually, um, celebrate the work that’s being done together versus the siloed effect.

Um, and like you said, leaders very much have a tricky role and they are. Often siloed. Um, and they have that power dynamic where they can’t talk to their board because that’s their boss and they can’t talk to their team because they, they’re their boss. So it, it is a tricky, [00:11:00] um, space to be in. And I think having a coach or somebody that they can lean on.

Or somebody like yourself to actually troubleshoot and learn and actually see the unique things that they’re naturally skilled at and some of the areas that they just need to take the time to do some training or some, some development spaces there. I just think it’s so crucial for leadership, but for everybody in that that space and when leaders can see themselves.

Um, and understand the importance of them getting that training. They would also pass that down to their teams as well. And I just think it, it, it benefits everybody when you have a strong leader in spaces like that. 

Veronica LaFemina: Yeah. Well, we talk a little bit about sandwich generation, like in our personal lives, right?

People who may be raising kids and also supporting, um. Parents or family members who may be aging at the same time. And I think that’s also true in some ways of the leaders right now in the nonprofit sector, which is maybe you didn’t get everything you needed on the way up. It doesn’t mean that you’re not brilliant and [00:12:00] smart and like creative and really good at this work.

But it is okay to say, Hey, there’s, there’s more that we wanna learn, or, I need these skill sets for the time we’re in now. And I wanna make sure that my leadership team knows our role in making this possible so that we can move other change and transformation forward. You know, one of the quotes I use often in my trainings, um.

It’s a Leo to story quote that says, everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. And that is a huge part of leadership and change work. Uh, but for all of us in this sector, which is it’s really easy to point and say, well, these are all the things that should be better, or you should be doing this.

What takes a lot of commitment and bravery is to say, so what does that mean if I want different results? What does it mean for me as a leader or a manager or as a member of this team that I might need to change my way of working to make sure we can all get there together so we can win as a team, [00:13:00] right?

And really ensure that we’re having the impact we wanna have for the people we serve. 

Nicole Jamrozinski: And that takes a lot of courage sometimes to acknowledge. Mm-hmm. And admit that. Yeah. I like that a lot. So what’s one challenge or shift you’re currently navigating within the space that you specifically work in or across the sector?

Is there an approach or support that you think would be helpful? 

Veronica LaFemina: I think one of the, um. One of the things I noticed, again, as someone who works a lot on upstream issues mm-hmm. Is that, um, in the time pressure we’re in right now. Right. And the reality is of some of the ways that funding is shifting, um, we.

I are still struggling with a little bit of like an individuality mentality with things, which is I have to, as a single organization or single leader, figure this out on my own, and that’s not new. But the pressure on that feels even more so when competition for funding may feel harder when we know that we [00:14:00] don’t have necessarily the capacity we need to, to deliver the programs we have.

Or when, you know, we’re just responding to the reality of how society is changing, um, and how the needs of the people we serve are changing. Um, because of that, I think it’s really important for organizations to, um, really get clear on their identity, right? So we talk a lot in our sector about everyone having their vision, mission, and values, but if we’re honest with ourselves and one another.

It’s very possible to find a similar organization working on a similar cause to yours with very similar vision, mission, and values. What starts to get different is what is a role we play as an organization, like what’s the specific, uh, way we show up here, and what does that mean for what. Will do and won’t do going forward.

Um, the reason why that matters is it [00:15:00] is really easy to get burned out and exhausted by trying to do all the things and be everything to everyone. But when we’re clear on our identity. It both lets us know what we’re great at and where we wanna focus our energy, and it helps us know where should we partner?

Where should we actually say, you know, this belongs to this other organization who works in our space. It makes it easier, I think, to build community, because we’re not all trying to do all parts of the work. We’re saying, actually, this organization has an amazing advocacy operation and we wanna make sure that, you know, if there are coalitions being built, that they’re.

At the table or leading that charge because they have those capabilities in house. Whereas this organization may be great at doing on the ground, face-to-face work with the community we’re serving. They may be great at hosting real conversations, at gathering useful information about what the community needs.

And over here, this organization might be great at funding research or at putting more [00:16:00] investment into bigger projects, uh, because they have that kind of, um. You know, funding, uh, structure, right? They might be a community foundation or something like that, where when everyone knows the role they play, it’s a lot easier to work together as a team, right?

Just like a sports team. Um, when we know what position we’re in, we know how to do well. In that position. And I think from a mindset perspective, going from that feeling of being alone and having to be all things to everyone to instead being in this position where we say, I can play my position on the team really well, that opens up the kinds of conversations that we might not have had before with other non-profit organizations with foundations, with, with.

Corporations who might be interested right in building that same kind of vision that we have. Um, and it lets us use our energy a little bit more effectively too, rather than, you know, continuing to think we need to do the same thing that everyone else is doing. Instead, we [00:17:00] can say, okay, but what. Is the most important use of our time and energy.

And that goes across the board, right? From what kind of programming, what kind of marketing and communications make sense, what kind of fundraising, um, vehicles or, uh, kind of lines of fundraising. We’re looking to develop some capability in, um, that kind of permission to focus. As a phrase I, I’ve used a lot throughout my career, um, really enables us to not be kind of stuck in a, we have to do it all space.

And I think that’s gonna be especially important as we keep moving forward over the next few years. And we’re seeing maybe a decrease in staff coming into the sector. We’re seeing technology, you know, ask us to change our ways of thinking about how we work together. Um, and so really getting clear. Um, on that permission to focus on our identity and what we do best, uh, I think is great for all of us [00:18:00] as individuals, but also really helpful from an organizational strategy perspective as well.

Nicole Jamrozinski: Yeah, I fully agree with that. I think give, it also gives us a little bit of. Opportunity to be okay to say no to things. Mm-hmm. Uh, ’cause that has been very hard in so many organizations that I’ve worked in. Or it’s like this fear of missing out or potential funding opportunity or partnership opportunity.

And it’s like, it feels like it’s almost mission creep or like, it’s just stretching your team out that much further when they’re already feeling crispy from burnout. And it’s like, it just gives you permission to. Say no and own what you do well. Um, and I think it’s gonna be fundamental for organizations to start thinking that way with the current realities that we’re in in nonprofit.

Mm-hmm. Um, that you need to hone in on what you do well and then find the partners to support the other work. Um, yeah, I think there’s gonna be a lot of shifts [00:19:00] happening over the next few years, so that, that piece is gonna be. Be crucial for sure. 

Veronica LaFemina: Yeah. 

Nicole Jamrozinski: And I think there’s a lot of interesting tie in with the nonprofit high if you’ve been a member for a while now.

Um, and I’m wondering if there’s been like conversations or connections that you’ve had in the nonprofit hive where it’s given you kind of that opportunity to create those spaces or has helped you shape different perspectives on, um, the work that you’re doing and like you’re not doing it alone. And I’m curious, have you, have you had any of those experiences?

Veronica LaFemina: Yeah. I think one of the things I love about the nonprofit hive is there’s so many super smart, super interesting, super creative people who are out there thinking about how do we make it better? Right? And that for me is like a big driver in my life. Like, like the aim that like we kind of all have this, um.

Commitment and responsibility to one another to make it better in the time that we’re here. Uh, and so I love seeing that creative [00:20:00] energy. I love, I get a lot of energy just from knowing that other people are out there as these kind of like points of light and, and doing what they’re doing well. Um, and I think it is great for perspective building too.

You know, as someone who works with. Established organizations who usually have been around a decade, five decades, maybe more. Um, the kinds of organizations I’m working with, you know, have already kind of built a name for themselves, but they might be having this kind of moment to say, what is our identity now?

Who are we now and next? And how do we honor the legacy of the past without feeling like. If we stop anything that that’s an affront to the past, right? Whereas in the Hive, you know, I might meet folks who are starting up a nonprofit or they might be going through the process of merging to organizations together, which in my very first in-house experience was two national organizations merging together and getting to really see that work.

And how do you take to organizations that are great. At different things, [00:21:00] but serving the same community and pull them into one so that they can be stronger. Um, so I really appreciate the emphasis on community and also just the diversity of thinking and problem solving and questions that people have, um, with what they’re passionate about and talented in, uh, and how they wanna make the world a better place.

And I think in this work, we, we really need, um. I talk a lot about in my change leadership work, executive stamina leaders, leadership stamina. Um, we sometimes think like a change can happen in six months, but it’s actually like a multi-year or decade long or longer process. And so being able to fill our cups and like to do the activities and behaviors that support our stamina as leaders is essential to making sure that we can have that shared engagement.

With people and to be working toward the same thing at the same time, rather than feeling like, but you’re [00:22:00] headed in this direction and I’m over here. Um, so I think there’s a lot of like lovely reminders and energy, you know, and stamina builders by being in community with other people who may be working on something entirely different, but are giving you.

New perspective mm-hmm. On something you could bring into your work or something you could share that would support someone else, um, in, in their work and their life. So, um, it’s been great to, to meet so many people who I probably wouldn’t have met otherwise. And also just to hear that diversity of perspective and questioning and path forward.

Nicole Jamrozinski: I find a lot of the, the nonprofit Hive community members. Are, they’re keen and curious. So they, they want to meet people, they are interested in hearing what you’re doing, and then they are very curious and tend to ask a lot of questions. And I find, um, I, I’m always surprised ’cause almost every single call I’m like, I had no idea [00:23:00] that was a thing in.

Mm-hmm. Like, there’s so many areas that you can work within the nonprofit space that almost every conversation I am. Like in awe of all the cool things that this individual is doing. So I’m with you in that space and I just think it’s, um, yeah, it’s, it’s refreshing and sometimes also like helps you tell your story a little bit better.

’cause it’s almost like a practice as to why you’re doing the work, right? Mm-hmm. So I’m curious, what’s one insight, resource or mindset that’s helped you recently and might help others in the community too? I know you have a, a large tool belt of suggestions for leaders, and I’m wondering what you could share with the community.

Veronica LaFemina: Yeah, I, um, it’s always hard to pick one, but I’ll say in this case, um, I really want leaders to take better care of themselves. And I think, you know, we talked a a little bit about stamina, um, [00:24:00] but really thinking about, you know, what is it on a practical level you need as a human to have this stamina to keep going when times are hard?

Um, so many of us learn to just push, push, push, push, push through, but I’m seeing more and more leaders with like big health issues, right? With the need to take more time away from work. With not really being able to. Um, like I, I kind of sometimes say like, our hearts are bigger than our hands, and so we’re, we’re real working so hard to like do the work of our hearts, but we may not have the capacity.

And being able to think about, you know, what do we need physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, um. To be able, like socially, what do we need to be able to stay in this work and stay committed? Um, and so I have, uh, a little, you know, worksheet that I [00:25:00] give to leaders to really think through that. Not just what do you need, but who can help you to make sure you’re getting it.

So, um, I have clients who, you know, have asked their, the coworker, you know, like an office over to say, Hey. If you’re leaving my office, could you please close the door? So I just get a few minutes to focus and process and be able to take in that information and go with what’s next. I have other clients who, um, have shared with their teams like they might need to like go see water.

Like I always joke, I need to go like, you know, process and see some water. And so I’ll ask people to a, you know, ask me when was the last time we spent time by the water? Um, and that can feel like. A small and sometimes silly thing for folks who are used to being incredibly professional all the time, but actually it invites people to also think about, well, how are their needs being met and are they caring for themselves?

Um, because having that stamina is a huge support for making sure [00:26:00] we can accomplish what we wanna accomplish. So, um, I think about that a lot because I see so often when it’s not. There. Right. And the, the effects of when it’s not working in organizations. Um, and so being able to, you know, identify that need and then also pair it with who are you gonna ask to help keep you accountable to it?

Um, it’s a little microwave building community. Um, it saying it’s okay to be, you know, sometimes the word vulnerable feels scary, but it’s okay to say, Hey, I could use your support to make sure I’m being accountable for. Keeping myself well and, and able to do the work that we all wanna get done together, 

Nicole Jamrozinski: for sure.

And then leading by example, if they, their staff, see their leaders doing that. You can have like a mini community just doing support work with each other, which is amazing. I, I love that. Thank you for sharing that. 

Veronica LaFemina: Yeah. 

Nicole Jamrozinski: So curious, where can [00:27:00] people find you? If people wanna follow up, uh, what’s the best place to connect with you?

Veronica LaFemina: I love connecting with folks on LinkedIn, so, um, if you search me on there, I’m pretty easy to find. Um, there aren’t that many Veronica Laina out there. Um, but also, um, I blog a lot on laina.co as well. Uh, so folks can kind of check that out if they’re looking for practical advice or tips or other resources that can help.

You know, with any of these elements around strategy or change, leadership work too. 

Nicole Jamrozinski: Amazing. Thank you, Veronica. It’s been so lovely chatting with you, and I just can’t wait to share this with the community. 

Veronica LaFemina: Thanks, Nicole. It was great speaking with you. 

Nicole Jamrozinski: Take care.