Bridging the Gaps: Chris Martin on Listening, Translation, and Holding the Tension in Nonprofit Work

Tasha: [00:00:00] good morning. Could you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your nonprofit origin story? 

Chris: Absolutely. Uh, my name is Chris. I go by they them pronouns. And I started off way over on the psychology side of things. I moved on over to international development. Once I realized there’s more than one psychology in the world, uh, there isn’t one version of this discipline.

Uh, and as I started to expand, I ended up falling into fundraising because I realized. What is a white person from Canada meant to be doing in the development space in the year 2026? How can we be leading authentically without taking up too much space? How can we be balancing all of our social dynamics and.

I started off in an agency position that was very much sold as, do you wanna do 50% data, 50% storytelling? And I was like, that sounds amazing. Sign me up immediately. Uh, they’re actually integrating the two different [00:01:00] universes and after helping lots of larger nonprofit. With like their monthly giving in particular across all kinds of different channels.

I went independent ’cause I was like, this information needs to find its way to the medium. In small shops, there’s so much information about how to be organizing our operations and really moving from like that friction energy to more of a flow energy. And I ended up deciding to become a nonprofit only in the last.

Six months. ’cause I realized that we don’t need more people who are jumping in and giving their take. We need more people who are doing that embedded listening, who are doing the sound boarding, who are doing the formalizing of the documents, who are giving someone that two pager with their thoughts before they get started on a project that they’re stressed about.

So they’re not starting staring at a blank page. So totally transitioned in the last six months and. So much smoother. Uh, I’ve really been enjoying it ’cause the dynamic is just slightly different. [00:02:00] It’s a little bit more oriented towards we’re in this for the long run. Let’s do on and off support. Are you busy right now?

See you in three months. Let’s regroup a little while from now and move on to the next transition or the next change management project. So that’s been super fun and we’ve been kind of mixing it up across like the leadership angles, the data angles, and the narrative angles. ’cause I feel like no one’s really integrating those things.

Tasha: I totally agree in what I’ve seen in the sector, and I love hearing of new and innovative ways that people are approaching just how to, how to be a helper for the helpers, right? Because I think that’s the piece that over the last couple of years. You know, it goes well beyond a title of like consultant when we’re talking about, you know, a consultant that consults in the food and beverage industry, having the same title of consultant than applied across to Social Impact.

It’s [00:03:00] very, very different, and I think it attracts very different people who are also helpers themselves. They’ve usually had those roles at some point in house, and so I love that this is the path that you’ve taken. I love that. I’ve got to watch. The path meander for you over the last two years that you 

Chris: also meandering?

Tasha: Yeah. Hey, that’s, I feel like similarly we started, before we just started recording. I am meandering my way, figuring this out too, as well. And what’s your favorite part about working in the social impact space? 

Chris: Um, I would say. Helping people see what their strengths are is probably my favorite thing. So often I’m going into nonprofits and it’s during a point of like intense tension.

Either it’s coming from like the brand evolving, or our funders have changed, or there’s been transitions and turnover. There’s usually something that. When I get in there, it’s, everyone’s a little bit tense. Everyone’s a little bit like, ah, what are we gonna do here? They’re in that competitive mindset.

Sometimes even without realizing [00:04:00] it, they might be saying like, look, we’re so collaborative. We’re all willing to help one another. But when you actually get down to like, what are you guys doing in your day to day, like there are processes don’t lead from one team to the other team. The information isn’t.

Flowing effectively from one part of the organization to another. So jumping in, and I only help organizations when I sense that there’s that person who actually cares about the other people in the organization inside of it. We can’t really do like that change management work without that person. We gotta have someone to partner with and really just be like, let me co-sponsor you.

You’ll co-sponsor me. We have two different positions in this dynamic. I’m giving you that external lens. You’re doing the internal lens. Let’s meet. Somewhere and meet you where you are and really integrate those perspectives. So you actually have a strategic plan that’s considering other actors in the ecosystem that’s considering things that you can’t already see inside of your space.

And while we’re doing that work, so often they feel overwhelmed by having like 20 different hats on at once. [00:05:00] Uh, that when they get. Positive feedback when I point out like, you’ve done really well here, or you were really afraid of doing anything involving data. Do you remember six months ago when you opened an Excel and you were like, ah, and closed it immediately?

I’m like, now you’re actually walking me through how you would do a data in. For an update fields, and look how far you’ve come in those six months and look at how much documentation we have to support this. Look how much data you’re using in your leadership conversations. Look how much smoother your dynamics are with the team.

You’re not fighting while you’re negotiating for anything anymore. You’re really actually working together and they often. Get really emotional. They’ll often cry because there’s so much tension in the sector. Our identities are getting pulled into our work. We’re getting asked to do so many different things, and just being able to sit there with them and go, it’s okay for you to not have the answer, like, let’s.

Ideate, let’s soundboard, let’s explore [00:06:00] what the options should be, and also having that ability to go if you’re, if it’s too much for you right now, like, let me pick up a little piece of it. I’ll never pick up. I’m always capacity building as much as possible. I’ll never pick it up permanently, but. I can hold that for you for a month or two while you’re doing seven other transitions.

You don’t have to do everything on your own. We’re meant to be a team. We’re meant to be working across the sector. Uh, why are we acting so much? Like every organization is its own little silo, its own little universe. Even every team, even every role, uh, it’s just, it’s wild to me. So I just love being able to go in and be like, you are great at this part.

You don’t have to do. Every version of fundraising at once. You don’t have to do every system in the universe formalized at the same time. Let’s start with these two, because they’re the ones that have the most friction right now. And let’s start with this method of fundraising because it’s the closest to your skillset.

You’re already an event planner maybe, or maybe you’ve already been doing a lot of proposal writing. We don’t have to. [00:07:00] Immediately jump into intense major gift and annual giving operations, we can start off with how do we transition from running that event or from going from proposals to those other things.

Like what does that transition period look like? 

Tasha: I think that’s so, so on point and just so critical to remember in this sector. And I know that those enormous organizations where a five year strategic plan makes total sense that they’re doing it in that fashion. Right. And. That, that makes sense. They have the budget, they have the people, they have the manpower to make those kinds of decisions, but.

So many nonprofits. I mean, we’re both here in Canada. Um, but it applies every country. I’ve talked to somebody in nonprofit, this applies across the board, is most nonprofits are running really small, tight, lean teams. They don’t, you know, the idea of biting off a multi-year infrastructure project is so overwhelming that for most people, rightfully so, they just don’t even, they’re like, yeah, [00:08:00] this is not gonna happen.

Right. Or, or when they do, there is a force from. Leadership to do it. That’s when you see huge turnover and then that’s a whole other reason why it doesn’t end up happening. So I think for internal champions to have their own champion is so special, right? Like to have that extra person that when you get to the spot where you’re like, yeah, we gotta make these changes, but we’re struggling to figure out what we can do sustainably in pieces, that’s, you know, you sometimes just need that external person and you need someone who knows how to take a look at it and go, oh wait.

You know, let’s pause on this piece because this actually maybe doesn’t make as much sense as we thought right at this moment. But finding some, someone who understands that is, uh, that’s pretty special. I love it. And you already kind of dipped in to the challenges here, Chris, by saying some of the things you already did, but that’s one of the questions we always enjoy hearing from our members too, is, you know, what are some of the challenges you think that are kind of unique or to the sector right now that we’re, we’re up against?[00:09:00] 

Chris: Oof. Um, human connection and technology come up right away. For me, also the narrative work. I’m seeing so many organizations spend six months, nine months planning for how they’re going to communicate with a community. And the whole time I am communicating with that community. Yeah. And I’m bringing to those champions internally what the community is talking about.

And so often we have to. Challenge other teams to be open to exploring new narratives or new framing for things. And in particular, I always think about how development is meant to be progressing. Our movements we’re the offensive component of a nonprofit. Yeah, communications is meant to be defensive, and that’s not that we’re at odds.

We should be each playing to our strengths and each playing in our lane and translating across our lane. And I see so many gaps when it comes to like that translation across the team. So often I’ll jump [00:10:00] in and I’ll get a comms team who will be like, we’re. Basically gonna not do any advocacy ’cause we can’t handle it and it’s too much for us.

And I’m like, you don’t have to do a hugely intense targeted against an org or an actor type advocacy campaign, but you should 1000000% be talking about what your audiences are already talking about. And if you’re already listening to them and already talking to them on a regular basis, it’s not so scary to have those conversations that we get scared of sometimes in public because you’re not.

Trying to be like, I know the answer. You’re just going, I’m a part of this dialogue. I’m a part of the back and forth with all of these different stakeholders. You’re one of the stakeholders in the system. Yeah. And I think sometimes we forget that and I’ll see orgs just spend so much time on that planning and not enough on the listening and.

They’re so focused on what are we going to tell people to move the needle or generate [00:11:00] hope or solve a huge problem, as if. One touchpoint could ever do that. And I’m like, that’s not really how development work works. It has to be over time. It’s the relationship building. It’s that connection with them over a period of time.

So that’s a huge one that I see being a problem. Just the reluctance of advocacy. I especially see. Queer organizations doing this problematically where they create like little echo chambers or they’re only talking to people who already understand their perspective, who already are aligned with their values.

I’m like, you have to reach to the other people who do not. See your perspective. And there will always be people who are unwilling, who are going to be intolerant in some way, of course. But there are way more people who are just confused, who just don’t understand what’s going on, and 

Tasha: they’re, they’re curious.

And like, I think nonprofits forget that part of their work is educate, like there’s an education component to the work, right. Whether it’s develop mm-hmm. And development kind of like, [00:12:00] feels like maybe, you know, fundraising work. Doesn’t feel like there’s an education component to, but you are educating, like that’s part of like the relationship building, right?

And yes, marketing should come in behind and there should be a whole plan of what education looks like and and how it continues. But I totally agree. I think most people, it’s not for. A lack of of care. It’s often that there’s just no under, like there’s no understanding whatsoever. Lack of exposure mm-hmm.

Is often a big thing to even new ideas and how we present those ideas and yeah, I think great. I don’t know if I’ve had someone say it exactly like that before in a conversation

and I think one of the natural spots that like I’m gonna move to next, but you’ve kind of started to touch on it a bit is because we’re starting to get into a little bit of a topic about like community level psychological safety to have hard conversations. ’cause this sector is full of hard conversations.

The work we’re doing is hard, so these are going to be hard conversations, but creating [00:13:00] space for, uh. Disagreement. Sometimes it looks much more like dissent. Sometimes it’s just not knowing. Right. And being curious and being able to be curious. But, um, my next question that I always ask members in these interviews is around like the importance of peer conversations and you know, how to, how to peer conversations factor into the work that you’ve been doing in the past, but also this new entity way of working in the sector that you’ve started to form.

Chris: Uh, I would say it’s all about like the, that co-sponsoring energy, like is there reciprocity between us when we’re working on the team, when there’s that sense of. We’re only in controversy because we’re trying to be generative. You can get through that really easily. It’s not so painful. It’s about make it about the points that you’re trying to make, not about the other person is one of the biggest things I think as well.

Um. I touched [00:14:00] on this yesterday actually in quite a bit of detail in the podcast that was released because I was explaining how so often we have all this friction that’s about you don’t understand my point of view. You want to change something, you have feedback about it, but you don’t understand like these 12 other things that are going on in the background or rely on that and.

We don’t make any room for those conversations or we’re negotiating, and I actually see fundraisers being the key players there at bridging that gap because we have to negotiate for literally every single part of the puzzle that we use to reach any of the objectives in our goal. We’re not doing the impact work or the impact measurement.

We’re not doing the brand framing. We’re not doing the communications that are more general to the entire world. We’re having to push the envelope on every single one of those faces at the same time without having any control over any of those elements. So we have to have really [00:15:00] strong relationships.

With all of the other teams and we need to let them know, I’m not trying to change the things that work for you. I’m trying to make this work for both of us. And there are like a million examples of that. And the easiest one I I say would say is data. And we’re pulling data. Oh my goodness. So often I’ll jump in.

There will be a fundraiser trying to work with a digital team or a data team. They’re trying to get data for their touchpoints for annual giving or for major gifts or for anything like that. And the data team is like, we do the same thing every year. And what you’re asking for would break all of the logic across so many different teams.

And I read the data, so I get to go in and go actually, um, the, there are like four or five things here that have been changing every year. And if we actually wanted to be clear from a fundraising lens on the data, what is consistent year over year? Only this half is consistent year over year. This half of the data query is actually different [00:16:00] every time.

Based on these three dimensions, were they in an event in the last three months? Are they assigned to a major gift fundraiser right now? And are they even opted in to, to any of the channels that we’re talking about? So. Breaking things down in a way where the teams understand that there are layers to these things, like there’s the organization level data and segmentation.

Then there’s like the touchpoint stuff that’s like all variants. When you break that stuff down and you have someone who can bridge those different teams, you can translate for them so that they’re actually able to meet each other where they are and go through those conversations in a way that’s not me versus you.

We need to get these two things done. One for you. One for me. How can we make both done with our process or policy? And especially with so many of our processes and policies, informalized, they’re often not written down anywhere. I’ll jump into an organization and almo, I would say, I would say 100% of the time.

There’s no knowledge architecture. Yeah, [00:17:00] there’s no common categories. There’s no common framework for how we break down the types of people that we’re talking about. So an org might be working with educators, and in all of their comms they’ll talk about educators, educators, educators. And then the development team and I are like, how do we get them to understand that for the sake of reaching different audiences, we have to distinguish between who is a frontline teacher?

Who is a school administrator, who is a guidance counselor in the school. ’cause those three angles are actually very different. The way that they interact with parents and students is very different. So we have to slightly tailor our communication so that even if we’re not at the point where we can actually send 4, 3, 5, whatever different touch points, we can at least have a line for each of ’em to go, Hey.

I belong in this messaging. Hey, I could be a part of this movement. Maybe I should listen a little bit more here. Maybe they might actually appreciate my [00:18:00] story about this. So often we’re chasing things like testimonials and there’s so many people waiting to share their story, but we don’t even bother to ask them.

Tasha: I really, I really love the angle that you took there because I think it is something that we end up having all these crazy silos happening internally with staff that we tend not to recognize. Um. So one of my final questions, you know, love doing these member interviews.

I think I’ve done, oh I think we’ve done over a hundred now, which is crazy. Oh 

Chris: my goodness. 

Tasha: We’ve been releasing one a week almost since we started, or very, very close. It’s been a lot, but so super excited ’cause we have the coolest people in this community. It is just, blows my mind all the time. But you’ve been around since.

Almost the very beginning, which is so cool and just excites me every time. I have one of our original OG kind of members who’ve been very, very involved. But what have you gotten out of being a member of the nonprofit Hive community? [00:19:00] 

Chris: Perseverance a hundred percent. Uh, I would say I would never have been able to make it as far as I have on my own without having a space that’s actually oriented towards co-sponsorship.

The people that I meet inside of the hive check up on me six months later, they send me a resource a year and a half after we spoke to each other. I had someone send all of their notes from their entire career. On business development to me, just because I gave them some feedback on how they could do even more with their positioning and like just an offhand kind of way.

And they were like, thank you so much. That changed how I could do this. Here’s so much value I want to give you. I hope you get value from this. And I’ve been a part of other consultant networks and I’ve been burned so many times in terms of partnerships. A lot of people in the sector are exploitative.

So 

Tasha: yeah, 

Chris: just I wanna say that you’ve created a space that is the [00:20:00] opposite of that, and every week I know if I have any wiggle room, I can jump in and just speak to another human being who gets it, who’s just trying their best to make the world a little bit better.

We can swap information, we can exchange knowledge. I can connect them to someone who might be a better support for them than me as well. Like it’s so lovely to have a community where we can do that without all the extra baggage that comes from, uh, communities that aren’t based on like that values alignment.

So I just wanna say I. So proud of the Hive for actually going ahead and choosing to be like, we’re gonna be selective. We’re gonna choose who’s meant to be in this space because we need to protect that space when we’re in a period with so much change, with so many social movements, getting completely.

Turned into propaganda. I would say, uh, like we need to protect the space where people are like, no, we wanna get into the nuance. We wanna do [00:21:00] that peace building work. We want transformative justice. We want truth telling. We want the people who are not neighbors, who don’t see each other as neighbors right now to at least be able to see each other as neighbors tomorrow.

Like, to me, that’s the bare minimum of nonprofit work. So I see that in the Hive all the time. Uh, I’ve loved being a part of the Hive. I love being a part of the Hive’s nonprofit partners as well. And I just love that you’re willing to be like, we’re going, we’re doing it, and we’re changing as we go, and we’re building it as we go.

And we get to see you evolve and you share that information back with us. And one thing I wanna also throw at you is. So many people talk about transparency, but the hive is more than transparent. The hive is forthright. The hive actually tells us what we want to hear before we ask you to hear it, and that is the biggest game changer for me.

Tasha: Well, thank you. I don’t know if I, I don’t dunno that all the time it’s [00:22:00] consciously happening or, you know, that we, we have a, a great plan and I’ve been trying to be transparent about that too, to go, Hey, we’re figuring this out with you. And that’s, I hope, what attracts people to participate, to continue to stay and know that, you know, we’re gonna try to do our best.

And that we also rely heavily on this community to help us figure out what, what is best, right? Like, it is not my vision. Uh, you know it by any means. I sometimes giggle to myself where I’m like, I just wanted to meet cool people like Chris. Excuse to meet them. And that’s what I built. And then the rest of it is what the community is telling me.

Um, or, and like, is lifting up to me. I love that you’ve been such a, an open. Ear. Uh, and also I appreciate deeply the honesty that comes from members like yourself to go, Hey, you, this could be improved upon. Hey, this might be a great resource. Hey, you’re maybe missing the mark over here. I need that feedback and [00:23:00] I work really hard to try to, uh, set aside any level of founder ego to go.

It’s not about me, right? It’s not about what I need. It’s about how do we move this forward. So I’ve appreciated deeply your commitment, your connection to the community, and just excited to continue to build with you moving forward. This has been so much fun to do an interview with you, um, after knowing you for years now, which seems crazy.

Chris: It does feel crazy, but we’ve done so much. Look at us both go. We have like completely changed over the last two and a half, three years, so super cool. Thank you for just taking the time to just amplify people in the sector. We need more of just these natural conversations where we’re not trying to do a script and we’re not trying to be like, here’s like an intense.

Breakdown of what I do. 

Tasha: I’m feeling hopeful and, and optimistic and in, you know, uplifted. So thanks so much for the time today, Chris. Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me.