Transforming Nonprofits with Data: Allison Prieur’s Vision for Change

Tasha: So good morning, uh, please introduce yourself Allison.

Tasha: I’d love to hear about your non profit journey today

Allison: Absolutely. Thanks for having me here. Alison Prier, I am in Tecumseh, Ontario, Canada. Um, so we are right across from Detroit, just outside of Windsor. And I joke that I didn’t know that there were jobs outside of nonprofits. Like I just always knew that I would work in nonprofits.

Allison: I volunteered growing up and, um, did my undergrads in psychology and social work and just automatically, like I was working, you In nonprofits while I was in school. Um, so it’s always been a thing for me, but what I learned, um, pretty early on, just out of my social work degree, I always knew that I would work at like community level, um, and I didn’t really know what that meant in social work.

Allison: We call it macro. Um, but I learned that like, it was really frustrating to work in nonprofits and that I was, um, one of my first jobs was with a local homeless coalition. So it was a group of 40 organizations trying to end and prevent homelessness. And. I was like, these people are working so hard and they cannot, like the, the funders and government are not listening to them about what they need to be able to make a difference and to actually like move the needle on this issue.

Allison: And so I went back to school and did a master’s in public policy. And I said, I want it to be able to talk to government better to help nonprofits, like translate what they were doing. Yeah. At the time I was really not even familiar with what my current Job is, which is evaluation. I didn’t know that. Um, like when I volunteered for things like building a logic model, the Pete things, people hate non profits, um, writing outcome frameworks, that that was actually evaluation work that I was doing.

Allison: Um, and so we call that accidental evaluator. So over time I moved more and more into those roles more formally. And, um, that’s when I really realized I started working for some funding organizations. to try to, I call them reconnaissance missions, like to try to understand what they were looking for and to help translate what I was experiencing in my nonprofit work to them, like what some of the challenges were going to be.

Allison: Um, one example, I worked for a funder where, um, they really over Very much overestimated the capacity, the tech capacity of nonprofits. And so they created all these great online tools, which were really nice, but the folks at the, like, most grassroots nonprofits had no capacity, like, they didn’t even know how to use Excel.

Allison: So having this really comprehensive and, like, intricate online tool was not gonna work for them. And so being able to try to translate some of that, um, was really important to me. And so then I went back to school and started doing a PhD in evaluation so I can continue like to shape the way that we do evaluation so that it works better for the nonprofit organizations that we work with.

Tasha: I love that. I love that. And it’s so funny because I had kind of like the opposite reaction. Like when I was young, I didn’t have much exposure. I didn’t know people who worked in nonprofit. Grew up in a very, very small town. And for me, it, like, it was almost like a revelation when I started to go, Oh my goodness.

Tasha: Like, and it. You know, I joked to my husband at like eight years ago when I started to get into this work and started to, you know, be exposed more to nonprofits and he’s like, you’re seeing it everywhere. Right? Like, I’m just talking about it because it’s almost like, it’s that like glass shattering how I met your mother moment where it’s like, once, you know, you can’t unknow.

Tasha: So if I think if you grow up with that, it’s so much harder. I’m sure it’s you not like, how do you put that? You know, cap back on to go, Oh, we’ll just leave this over here. If you’ve seen it and you know, it’s there.

Allison: I think that’s it. Right. Like, especially, you know, you’re just aware of like the systemic injustices.

Allison: Like it’s not right for like my perspective, a moral and ethical rightness that, you know, people are in the situations that they’re in, like our housing system, our food system. There are so many things, just like basic rights that people should have access to and that they don’t. And so these nonprofits are trying to like, You know, band aid or like plug solutions in and I just really felt that like there’s something I can do to try to make this better.

Allison: And that’s where I’m at. Yeah, I

Tasha: love that. I love that. Okay. So tell me a little bit more, you know, favorite part to date of your long history of working in this sector. Well, I love

Allison: I, so I’ve used a lot of strengths based tools and I think that’s something I would say is my favorite part. And it’s really introducing those tools to organizations to be able to take this positive view of their work.

Allison: I think so often we’re in this scarcity mindset. Um, there’s competition for funding, but really taking that step back and saying like, here are the things we’re doing really great. And how do we do more of that? Um, I think it really opens people’s eyes and it. It gives them a sense, you know, they’re there because it’s of their purpose, right?

Allison: They’re there because of their passion. Like people don’t work in nonprofits, um, to make millions of dollars or to like, you know, you talk about this all the time, right? Um, but so to give them, to show them and reflect back to them, the positive difference that they’re making in community is so powerful, I think.

Allison: And it really opens people’s eyes, as I said, to be able to see, um, Ways to continue doing that, ways to do more of that, ways to partner, um, to, you know, make that impact and amplify that impact even greater.

Tasha: So one thing that, um, you know, a lot of times happens in, in all organizations. And there’s a discussion often about if you’re a marketer, it’s not just outward marketing, it’s internal marketing.

Tasha: Like your own people need To have the messaging, they need to understand what you’re trying to sell. Like, because they sometimes are providing the services, right? Like I’ve been in so many organizations where it’s like, Oh, here’s the services we’re doing on the inside. And I need that information as a marketer, but I also have to go, okay, heads up, all the stuff you’re talking about.

Tasha: That doesn’t matter to the person on the, like, they’re like, they’re not using any of the same language as you. It doesn’t matter if they are instead looking at like the impact of what’s happening or, you know, what’s the. What’s the end point? That’s the goal. They want to get to all of this middle ground stuff.

Tasha: Sometimes matters to them. Sometimes doesn’t, but your own internal team cannot understand how you’re talking to the general public. So I think that’s so interesting to bring that impact back in internally, right? It’s like that gathering of stats. Who did we help? How did we help them qualitative? You know, I know there’s so many discussions around like.

Tasha: It’s not just quantitative data we need, like, qualitative is really interesting, especially in the non profit.

Allison: Absolutely. And so it goes both ways, I think. And one of the things that, when I’m working with non profits, like, I try to work with organizations that have really low capacity and are, like, just getting started in a journey of embedding, like, data and evaluation into their work.

Allison: And one of the first things I always suggest is talk to your staff. Like, bring people together, have a staff meeting, and talk about what they’re seeing. It can help you identify gaps, So that then you can seek funding for some of those places. One of the things I work with a group called Sustainable Livelihoods Canada.

Allison: And one of the things we’re always trying to help organizations do is identify like what we call the unfunded work. So what work are you doing that you actually have no funding for? Because there’s an opportunity to potentially attract some funding to support that because you’re doing it anyway. Um,

Tasha: so cool.

Tasha: I hadn’t even, you know, I think this is the thing is so many of us avoid the exact conversation you’re having where we’re just like, oh, we just continue to do this trucking along, you know, it would be great if this was funded, but, you know, I don’t even know that, uh, nonprofits do that. It’s taking that time and knowing what you’re going to do with that time.

Tasha: Having those challenging conversations is also a little overwhelming if you don’t know what to do with it once you’ve had it.

Allison: Well, and it’s tough too. I think exactly that because sometimes you’re afraid, like the, what you hear might be something really tricky. And so. Hello. Hi. One of the things I always encourage organizations to do is really take it back and like, take those small steps.

Allison: You cannot solve it all in one day. So figure out like, you know, Frozen, we both have kids. Like, what’s the next right thing that you can do? Like, what’s the next step you can take? Right? And I think that can be so powerful within organizations, but it also builds that culture of learning and using evidence.

Allison: So check something out, you know, pick, pick one thing to do, try it out. And then like, you know, the, the. Classic like project management plan, do study act, do that thing. Um, so we’ll figure out what, uh, how it’s working, what you need to shift and then maybe take a next

Tasha: step after that. I love that. Okay. So this kind of leads in perfectly because we are started talking about challenges, but challenges that you’ve seen in this sector, this can be global.

Tasha: This can be more at a community kind of level, but what do you see often?

Allison: So I

Tasha: think,

Allison: and it really does feed into that last conversation because I think it’s an opportunity to for folks like me and like you to really learn from the direct service staff about what challenges they are experiencing. You know, we talk a lot about burnout and think about those direct service staff and what they’re, um, what they are feeling in those situations.

Allison: Um, situations that they’re working in where, like, the system is designed to hold people back. And they’re here just trying to, like I said, you know, band aid, plug things together. But they’re going home with that. And I think, um, uh, Maytree Foundation does a great Five Good Ideas series. And Farzana Docter was someone who was on it, um, about five good ideas around self care.

Allison: She’s written a book about it too. But she talked about, um, the fact that, like, it’s normal and expected to be, um, like, upset by human suffering. Like, this is, like, this is, like, this is a normal reaction to what folks are experiencing. And when we think about, like, how we can kind of wrap that support around our direct support.

Allison: And make sure that, um, you know, we are like, whether we’re in a development role or an evaluation role that we’re really like doing the best we can to help them do the great work because they’re really the ones who are making the impact. Right? Um, and so keeping their connection with, you know. Program participants in a good way.

Allison: Um, and also, yeah, just keeping those feedback loops open to understand those challenges that are coming. Because the reality is, I mean, we all know, we’ve already said the pay and nonprofit sector is not great, but those are all systemic issues as well. Right? I think that funders for a long time have relied on people coming into the nonprofit sector and supplementing their work.

Allison: wages with their passion. And so, and, and the work is tough, it’s hard. And so I think, you know, we can help push to change that conversation while also recognizing what folks who are doing like the direct work are really experiencing.

Tasha: Well, it’s kind of been interesting because I actually You know, anecdotally, I’m not gathering data the way I should.

Tasha: We should have a conversation about that. But, um, anecdotally, you know, I actually find sometimes the front line people who are doing direct delivery of services. The work is a different kind of hard, right? But they have that tighter emotional connection to being like, I did this and then this kind of happened.

Tasha: Right. And I, it’s a different kind of burnout happening among those individuals, but usually their passion is still very, very high because they can see what’s happening. And so I think that’s sometimes the challenge too, of, you know, people who are in marketing roles, fundraising roles, you know, director development, all of those kinds of roles is.

Tasha: They’re not always getting that opportunity to go out into the field or, um, have those direct relationships and there’s a lot of reasons behind that. Sometimes it’s time. It’s money. It’s energy. It’s, you know, if you’re providing services in Africa, and that’s where all the program people are, you maybe are in North America doing different work.

Tasha: So you’re not getting that opportunity, but we’re really You know, at the individual level, I think it’s very different than at the organizational level of what we would call burnout because the burnout that’s being reported at an organizational level and what I’m then hearing from people at an individual level are not, they’re not matching up very well right now.

Tasha: Um, and I think that’s, what’s been interesting about some of the high chats is like, those are different conversations when you get a one on one with someone

Allison: Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s what I love about the Hive is that you get to meet. People in so many different types of nonprofit work. And so, you know, I mean, I’ve met people who do very similar work to me.

Allison: I’ve met people who do work that is like adjacent to me, where we see some synergies that we didn’t know existed before the hive, but then also getting to meet some of those folks who are out there doing that direct service work and kind of reaffirming what I’m hearing through my work, like, okay, yes, this is broader than just these, uh, You know, number of organizations that I work with, but it’s something that’s really kind of ubiquitous throughout the sector.

Tasha: Absolutely. Yeah. I, the variety of organizations that I would never have heard about, you know, that just, this is what they do. And you’re like, I didn’t even know that this was, you know, clearly once you hear it, you’re like, Oh, of course, there’s people who need this type of service, right? That this is out there and the broadness of.

Tasha: Nonprofits who are truly plugging the hole of what? You know, I’ve met so many people who are providing nonprofits that are domestic violence resources for women. Well, that would’ve been covered a lot of time by the government, potentially in the past. And now it’s like, well, there’s this huge gaping hole that just does, there’s no, if nonprofits don’t step in, there’s, there’s no resources or there’s nothing there.

Tasha: Or the wait list is two and a half years in Canada to get any other resources you might need to get into a shelter somewhere. Right. And you know, it’s so. Uh, you know, it’s wonderful to know about how many nonprofits are out there providing different services. It’s also really challenging to hear that almost all of them are experiencing the same problem.

Allison: Yeah, exactly. And, and I think so much of it, you know, here in Canada comes from that downloading of services. Like you’re saying. To organizations and the, the rationale for it at the time was about cost savings. Well, there’s only one reason there was a cost savings. It’s not because like nonprofits can do the work with fewer people or more efficiently in some way.

Allison: It’s because they were willing to do it cheaper. And because they bred this culture of competition, that was like a race to the bottom in terms of, you know, how, how low can we go in terms of our budget to be able to do this work. And that’s now set us up. For, you know, in these decades really that we’ve had of austerity, like now we’re in this situation where nobody’s had wage increases.

Allison: Like I could count, uh, I’ve worked in so many nonprofits and with, and there are so few that actually do like a cost of living adjustment. You know, folks are, are like legitimately like making less money. Now than they were a number of years ago because those funding increases haven’t come and that the work has only gotten more difficult,

Tasha: only gotten more difficult.

Tasha: Absolutely. Um, so my next question is around peer support. You know, how does peer support influence your work? Um, support your work, all of those different pieces.

Allison: Um,

Tasha: good question. I

Allison: don’t think that I could do the work that I do without peer support. I think it takes so much feedback from other folks, um, to be able to do this work.

Allison: I had a mentor really early in my career, Cheryl Taggart, who told me, knowing that I was going into this kind of, um, community level work. She said, always make sure you keep that connection to, you know, to the work and that you don’t get too removed from that. And so I’ve really carried that with me for like the past 20 years, um, in making sure that I have peer support at various levels.

Allison: And so, um, you know, working with the nonprofit leaders where I’m hearing about their challenges and their experiences, working with other folks like us who are doing the consulting and, you know, just throwing ideas. Like that’s a great group for me to be able to test things out or say like, does this make sense to you?

Allison: Um, how might I add, you know, some of your, um, Marketing expertise into what I’m thinking about in terms of like disseminating this evaluation report, right? Like that’s all so valuable and then also of course being able to connect with the staff Like I said and learning about their experiences the challenges that they are facing and how I can better support them through data and learning

Tasha: It’s been the hype.

Tasha: I keep joking around where I’m like, my marketing is only getting better because I actually feel like I just get to talk to other people and go, this is what I’m seeing. Like it’s, it’s, it’s almost like the opposite of an echo chamber because sometimes I’m like, I am on point and I’m like hitting this, like this marketing messaging is exactly what I needed.

Tasha: Or sometimes I have just gotten so bogged down at work by myself, you know, how much of the time and. It is great for someone when I’m trying to put together like some new hive messaging, and I think that this is on point and someone I’ll share it with someone. And they’re like, well, this isn’t really, you know, this is this is not going to resonate for the following reasons.

Tasha: Or you haven’t thought about this from this sort of a D perspective, or I can’t I can’t think through everything. Right? And I think this is. Because we’ve almost been, so many people I talk to in non profit like it’s so solo that no wonder it kind of becomes like an echo chamber either in your organization or in your head because you’re not getting that outside influence often enough.

Allison: Yeah, absolutely. I don’t think I’ve come out of a Hive chat, not like without an idea, not feeling energized, not being like, oh, this is something that I want to think about or work on. It’s like. Every single time you just learn something new, you’re exposed to someone who has a different perspective and it’s

Tasha: I usually have a bunch of tabs open afterwards where I’m like, yeah, there’s all these great websites or like people recommend books to me.

Tasha: I don’t, I have like 10 books already piled up that I’m like, Oh no, please don’t recommend the book. If it’s like a short podcast, like I can maybe do that, but like no more, no more books, maybe audio books. I’m going to have to get into that and see if I can get my kids to listen to it. Um, so you kind of jumped into this a little bit already.

Tasha: You’ve been a hive, for quite a while, which I very much appreciate one of our amazing sponsors yourself. Um, you know, what have you gotten out of the The hive chats, you know, having had like favorite conversations, things like that.

Allison: Oh, I can’t, I don’t think I’ve had a favorite conversation for sure. Like I couldn’t even rank them.

Allison: And that’s something that I’m usually pretty good at doing, but they have all been so lovely. Um, I think that. When I think about what I’ve, what I’ve gotten out of them, like I said, it’s really that energy. It’s that excitement for the work. It’s the camaraderie recognizing that, you know, we’re all kind of in this together and there, like, things can be better because we all believe it.

Allison: We’re all here voluntarily without, you know, any, um, compensation or any, like, expectation. It’s all just, like, showing up to meet new people and we’re all here for the same reason. And it’s just, it’s lovely. Like,

Tasha: it’s, you know, it’s like a It’s funny because it’s attracting certain people. And I was talking with someone about this the other day because they’re like, Oh, well, what do you do about, uh, you know, people who don’t really want to talk.

Tasha: And I was like, well, I don’t think that this is the thing for them. And that’s okay. Right. Like I don’t, if this is not your jam one to one conversation, that’s all right. There’s probably other great groups out there. There are lots of webinars. There’s lots of more like group discussions. If that’s not conversations like this, exactly.

Tasha: That’s okay. You don’t have to do that. Bye. The people who, you know, are joining, I think are coming with a lot of, um, a lot of backgrounds. They’re ready to have some, some interesting, I’ve had some wild conversations that have gone down such a garden path afterwards that I’m like, Oh, I feel like I just had like a little bit of a shift in my mindset on something.

Tasha: And that’s not what I planned on doing at eight 30 on a Thursday morning. Um, but this is where I’m at now. Right. So cool. I think that’s the hardest

Allison: part is then like integrating it. You have this great conversation and then you’re like, okay, now, like my world has changed. So what do I do?

Tasha: Exactly. I’ve had some Thursdays where, you know, I kind of cheat a little bit and take three discussions when I can on a Thursday.

Tasha: And my husband will have dinner time is like, you’re like on fire still about all this stuff. And I’m like, this is what happens though. This is why it’s like such a great day. Thursdays are so fun. Um, this is, it’s, Lovely. I would like to ask you, you know, please describe exactly all that you do with your consultancy and how people can get in touch with you because I think it’s such a unique offering and one I know that lots of nonprofits need.

Allison: Well, this is where like my marketing skills and lack of show because I feel like I don’t have a great, uh, a great like pitch for it. But so basically I work with organizations, mostly human service nonprofits. I, my, I’ve been saying I want them to use their data and change the world. So I try to help them often take data they already have, whether they’re collecting it for funders or, um, like I said, staff focus groups, those kinds of things, take really simple data and use it to improve their programs internally, but also to advocate for system change and.

Allison: That’s, that’s the kind of work that I do with organizations and that looks very different depending on usually where their funding sources if they have some internal funding, we can be really flexible. If they’re if it’s attached to a grant, I help them maybe evaluate a specific program or something like that.

Allison: But I bring in a lot of different evaluation approaches. I believe in the mixed methods like quantitative and qualitative and really just it. Customizing something for what an organization is trying to achieve.

Tasha: I love that. Oh, that’s fantastic. And your website, I’m going to put it in the comments for this YouTube video as well, but, uh,

Allison: dare I see d a r e i c.

Allison: com. Awesome.

Tasha: Amazing. Well, so you’re just a delight as I already knew, but this was super fun. Thank you so much for doing this with me.

Allison: Thank you. It was wonderful.