Eric DePalma on Leading With Realism, Rewriting Nonprofit Norms, and Building True Collaboration

Tasha: [00:00:00] Good afternoon. Could you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your nonprofit origin story?

Eric: My name’s Eric. I got started in nonprofits in college. I was studying anthropology, fell in love with primates. Or I should say I was actually a theater student first and then found anthropology.

Oh, I love that. And really jived with one of my professors, who taught me how to write. She actually tore apart one of my first paper that I ever wrote for, not tore apart literally, but you know, red penned it all the way up. So she’s the one that taught me how to write and took me under, her wing.

It was actually her nonprofit that I. Started working for, that was like the first nonprofit that I’d ever been exposed to, at least internally. And it’s very small. I actually still do some work for them when, on the side kind of thing. And they’re called the Orangutan Conservancy.

It was just like such a crash course in [00:01:00] nonprofits. It was like all volunteer run board, anything that I threw out, they were like, yeah, sure, let’s explore it, kind of thing. So it was crash course, but like a good crash course in nonprofits.

Something that I didn’t even realize or didn’t really appreciate until now is that. They know what they do and they just do that. Yeah. They don’t do anything less, they don’t do anything more. I say that in a good way. They’re like, this is our capacity and we’re gonna just do that.

And I think that honestly gave me a very narrow view. Not a narrow view, but a very like OneNote experience in nonprofits. So when I eventually started moving on to other nonprofits, I was like, whoa, what’s going on here with Let’s strive for the moon all the time, or the stars.

The constant burnout and stuff is such a, hit in the face kind of thing. So, I’ve been working in nonprofits ever since, just fell into development because to be completely candid, I was in education before, didn’t make [00:02:00] enough money, and then went over to development because they typically paid more.

Tasha: What a thing to say where education doesn’t pay that well, so we’re gonna move into development. , What a nonprofit thing to say honestly., That’s crazy. Can you tell us a little bit about the organization that you’re working with right now?

Eric: I’m working with an organization called Haven Neighborhood Services.

They’re a financial capability nonprofit, working out of Los Angeles, but are slowly expanding. They do, complete their services all the way down to San Diego. But they really specialize in financial and housing counseling. Very one-to-one services figuring out, how can we get your personal finances?

So where they need to be to do what you need to do. And it’s a really great organization. They serve so many different communities and they do it in a culturally and linguistically sensitive way, which I think is a very nuanced thing, these days. Something that I didn’t know about them when , I came on board, was that [00:03:00] their.

Very passionate about changing the nonprofit sector. And I think that’s where we have jived the most. Not only are they dedicated to their clients, but they’re dedicated to the sector as a whole and to their partners. They really just wanna see the world changed, which is amazing to be around.

But they do also do it in a realistic way. I just got off a call with both of our, my bosses and they were like, encouraging me to say no to them because they were like, I know, not all of my ideas are I know we can’t do all of my ideas, so, please tell me when, this is unrealistic.

That’s

Tasha: great. I love to hear organization stories, organizations like this. I think there’s a cool thing about hearing. What other, this is where I think nonprofit doesn’t connect and communicate with each other in enough, right? To kind of go, we’re really good at going, oh, here’s the bullshit that’s happening.

Yeah. And this is ridiculous, right? But I think we also need to [00:04:00] share those stories look at this great example of lead, how this leading is happening, right? And here’s a cool way to look at this differently and. Those stories are the ones that like, get me all excited to go, how do we do this somewhere else?

What could, how could this be done, in another space in the sector? Because, you wrote a brilliant article recently that I think I read as I was like my, like I was driving with my family back somewhere and I feel like I was making actually noises like I was like verbalizing while I was reading it because it was so good.

But I do think it’s so cool to, I love people starting to talk about what needs to be done differently because there’s a lot, there’s a decent amount we can do, right? We’re not paralyzed, or that’s not even the right word, but we’re not stopped from being able to make changes and it’s uncomfortable, but there are people leading the way on how to do it.

So I think that’s fantastic. I love that you’re working at an organization like that.

Eric: Yeah. And that’s not to say that there’s not still problems. I think that’s what I value still , is that [00:05:00] we still do have uncomfortable conversations. It’s not peachy all the time, but every time it happens, it reminds me, I’m at a good place because they want to have these uncomfortable conversations and they want that feedback. That’s so unfortunately, that’s so rare., I also just came from a, an organization recently where that was not the norm, I carried that with me to this organization, and so it’s not, I know it’s easy. Sometimes I think about this as I’m like writing or putting out, content and stuff, and, I know it’s easy to identify the problems. It’s easy to say, we should do this differently. , But I also know it’s like you carry that, everything is so based on your own experiences.

So based on context, it can be so uncomfortable and it can be so difficult to actually see in person.

Tasha: Well, this feels like a natural segue into one of my questions that I was asking in these interviews, but what do you feel like are one of those, and like we highlighted a challenge of this sector already, but, what else would you [00:06:00] additionally go, having been in here for a while now doing all of this?

This is one of the big challenges that I see.

Eric: Honestly, it’s. Treating people like the experts that they are. I think that’s one of the biggest things that I always get frustrated with. Not only experiencing myself, but also seeing any one person’s like fault or anything like that.

I think it is just so built into the sector., And we all have these unrealistic expectations that are not only put on us, but they’re put on the ones that are putting those expectations on us, right? Like the board expects the world from the executive director and the executive director expects the world from the development director.

So, it’s this awful chain, reaction that’s happening. But across all the organizations that I’ve been with,, that to me has made the biggest, has left, [00:07:00] like the most detrimental effects is when people feel for whatever reason, like they need to have all the answers.

Because no one does. And, it is a collaborative sector. There is no other way of doing it. I feel like when you’re looking at for-profits, sometimes you can be independent, sometimes you can, if you hit on the right,, product or you hit on the right thing, you can work on your own, but it just doesn’t.

Work here, like you’re working, especially when you’re serving, human clients, there are so many different needs there. It’s so complex. You have to listen to not only your community, but your partners and the people that are helping you get to where you are. Especially, hello we’re asking for donations and free money.

You can’t do that alone.

Tasha: No, you really can’t. And I think what’s been really interesting for me. In this kind of like insider outsider spot ’cause I’m not in-house, but I’m very much deeply connected with many people in-house. And I think what’s been interesting [00:08:00] is, yes, there are some great examples of collaboration and we use the word very loosely across nonprofit as if we’re all collaborating.

There’s this assumption too from a lot of my friends in for-profit are like, nonprofits are so collaborative and I’m like.

Yeah. Not really,

no., Not in the same way that I actually see. A lot of for-profits actually being way more willing to go. You know like, let’s recognize because I think maybe in for-profit we go, Hey, I sell X, you sell Y.

We clearly may sell to the same people . In some capacity, but we don’t actually have the same product so we can collaborate together. Nonprofit almost has to look at that the same way with their donors and this concern about grants and everything to go. You have XI have Y. There is going to be this crossover in who may decide to donate to us, but that’s actually not a problem.

If anything, maybe if we came together and collaborated, we actually have more like. [00:09:00] Buying power Yes. To make a relationship. But we don’t look at it that way. And for-profit just runs circles. Unfortunately, so much of my experience has been watching for-profits, collaborate really well and not get caught up in that assumption that there’s only so much to go around.

I don’t know. It always drives me, it makes me feel nuts.

Eric: I think that’s ’cause for-profits put. The profits first. Right. And nonprofits are so scared to even think that way. For pro, like in order to operate, for-profits have to sell, they have to bring in money.

So of course that’s the first priority when you’re looking at a partnership. But I think nonprofits have been caught in this cycle of being so protective and secretive and competitive over. What they’re doing , to a degree, I get it right, it feels like you’re competing for the same grants.

It feels like you’re competing for attention and, brand awareness and, everything spots , at the farmer’s markets or whatever. It [00:10:00] always feels like you’re in competition, but you’ve never actually, like both. , But those two of those nonprofits haven’t ever come to the table and actually talked about .

What are we going after? Because they may not be going after the same things anyway. It’s just this perceived competition. I was at a organization for a while that would always say there was a much larger organization that worked in the same area and they did. Very similar things to what we did.

But the party line was always, we’re not competitors, we’re partners. But as soon as you got behind closed doors, it was like, oh, they’re copying us. Oh, they always do what we do, and I remember always thinking in my head, like,, I don’t think.

They are. , I don’t think people are operating like that in general, Sure, yeah. I get it. Copying happens, cheating happens, whatever. But I think we’re all so immersed in what we’re doing that we also don’t realize that,, we may be doing [00:11:00] similar things.

Maybe we’re all just smart people and going after the same.

Tasha: Right. I, totally agree. Okay. I’m gonna shift us into the positive notes because I always love to know what. People’s favorite things about working in this sector? So something that just brings you joy in the nonprofit work that you do?

Eric: Honestly it’s the creativity, and for lack of a better word, the scrappiness of, and I think that’s why I’ve stayed with. Typically smaller nonprofits., I did a stint in a larger organization and it was a little bit more rigid. I don’t know if that maybe speaks directly to, nonprofits.

Maybe you find this with smaller businesses. I have no idea. , But it is. That ability to look at a problem and be like, okay, how can we figure out a custom solution for this? And, just being able to pivot and try different things. I don’t know. I feel like the mentality that I’ve found with nonprofit work [00:12:00] is, , we’re gonna meet the problem where it’s at, which I understand.

Is also part of, the problem because we’re always so willing to step outside of the box and find a new solution. That’s also what’s addicting about it , it’s always changing and I always think in like terms of animals, it’s so enriching because it, you’re never done with.

Challenge. You’re never done with the problem. , So I know that’s why I keep going back to it.

Tasha: I feel like you would be very well suited to the startup world because I feel that’s a little bit of it too, where you’re going resource strapped. You never know what’s coming at you next, and you do have to pivot and be quick on your feet.

I think that’s actually something that a lot of nonprofits don’t lean into to go. Look at us problem solving. Look at us Finding solutions. Yeah. Like they don’t even, own that. Yeah., Like a personality trait almost of nonprofit. Look at us building solutions.

Look at us solving problems. Instead, you’re onto the next problem. And you haven’t even gotten to celebrate the previous [00:13:00] problem that worked through? Absolutely. No.

Eric: Oh my gosh, I can’t. I remember, I forget who said it, but I’m sure, I think I saw it on LinkedIn, but it was like, no one’s gonna celebrate you unless you celebrate yourself.

And they’re talking about nonprofits and I was like, that is so true. I know we do the impact reports, we do the, narratives or whatever, and the success stories. But what about when you get that grant or when you get, there’s just the small wins too. We started doing that at Haven as well, and I remember.

There was an uptick in our engagement and our, impressions and things. I was like, there’s something to that., You have to share those little wins because otherwise, like, all right, you put out a 14 page impact report. Not every person’s gonna open that and read it.

And in our age, things have to be digestible

Tasha: I think this is something we probably get in our heads a little bit about as like people who market or , in marketing and fundraising,, in just building businesses and building up nonprofits in general.

The win has to be big for us to, slow down. But the thing, [00:14:00] is that a lot of our supporters, especially sometimes that I would think, my $25 a month donation, I have a couple nonprofits I support. That doesn’t feel to me, like when an entire building is built, my $25 a month donation doesn’t, I don’t see myself in a built building.

But I do sure as heck see myself in a like, Hey, we worked really hard towards this campaign and I know that I donated and it’s $1,500. Well, that’s okay. I know I took part in that. So like I don’t think that it always has to be big. It just has to be really like human and humans.

Yeah. Sometimes if it gets too big, I don’t think our brains even know how to really comprehend that.

Eric: No, absolutely. And I think that’s why I feel like we see this same messaging come up a lot, especially across like LinkedIn and whatnot. We always recognize that the smaller community organizations or the smaller organizations are always tied in so much more closely and so much more effectively with their [00:15:00] communities.

We can recognize when things are meaningful. We can recognize when things are, relatable. And I think that’s important., The whole relatable. Aspect too, like especially in nonprofits, we’re looking at so many different levels of income and, affluent like backgrounds and whatnot.

What’s relatable to one group of people is not gonna be relatable to another. Especially when you’re thinking about, building community and building things that are impactful across different, , populations you really have to think about those things. And when you’re just celebrating these huge accomplishments, is lost on the people that, maybe weren’t directly in involved with that or maybe support you at a very different level.

Tasha: I love that. That’s fantastic. Tell me. Peer relationships within the sector. People who have, maybe you’ve had a, you’ve been the mentor, they’ve been your mentor.

How have those influenced your success working in this [00:16:00] sector? I know you already mentioned a lovely individual who helped you early on in your journey.

Eric: Yeah. It’s been a love hate relationship with mentors. And my therapist can attest to that. So this is kind of a different answer.

I definitely did have great mentorship when I was in, college and being exposed to, taking things that you learn in a more academic setting and applying that and understanding that it gets a lot more messy when you get out into the real world.

And it’s not always perfect and it’s not always, all that stuff. But in nonprofit worlds. Once I really got into it, I found myself actually really looking for a mentor. And what I ended up doing was, I think subconsciously I always made my boss, my mentor and

looking back that was not a great decision, because I put my entire.

Value set into how they treated me and how they valued me. It gave me a [00:17:00] very odd relationship with work and with coworkers and with the nonprofit sector as a whole. Because then I eventually started seeing, my boss in the nonprofit sector as one, right? That they are the same thing.

So I’ve had a tricky relationship, with peer mentorships and I think it’s only been within maybe the last couple of months that I’ve learned to one set myself aside from my work life and what I’m doing there. And from like my, I don’t even want to say hobby life, but

just what I think about this sector as a person and as an individual. And kind of reframing that and making obviously through the hive has, , has helped with this tremendously. Because I’ve been able to meet people outside of my own organization, and not for work. ’cause of course that’s how I was doing all of my networking before.

It’s given me a sense of. Identity [00:18:00] myself that I can carry and I can be like, okay, these are the things that I believe in outside of work, and it doesn’t have to be tied to my work personality and my work life. , This is just what I think. And I can be honest about that because, obviously I can’t say all the things that I wanna say on my, LinkedIn account.

Tasha: Yeah

I love that. I think, first of all, I always love how candid. You are and how honest? Because I think that is, really important. Right. And there’s a natural hierarchy that kind of just comes into being just by default of how we all enter work often. Yeah. and we can recognize , what is so challenging for people in nonprofit in particular, and this is again, anecdotal across many conversations and lovely humans that I’ve met over the past, how many years is that they care about their work and feel very deeply about it.

And I know we have you on for a amazing, super excited for the LinkedIn Live that you’re participating in later, this year with us because it is such a [00:19:00] fine balance of. We feel really strongly about this work. Maybe we’re not always super passionately tied to the exact mission that we’re supporting, but we sure as heck are individuals who care.

And it’s really hard when our work life all gets tied up into this. And we had a, one of our members, samir Mufi, Evan and I interviewed her for good nonsense, talking about grief in this sector and how we don’t grieve and we don’t give ourselves space to go, wow, that sucked. We don’t do that. We just are like, pick ourselves up and go on our way.

And because the mission is so critical and it’s above all, and, that’s not realistic. We’re people, and we can be passionate people who also. Go, okay. I am still a human in this and this is what I need for myself. It’s a tricky spot and I feel like the majority of people in nonprofit I know are struggling with it.

The exact conversation you’ve brought up here? Oh

Eric: yeah, absolutely. I remember at my last, organization and not to put an [00:20:00] anyone on blast, but, that is exactly where I was. It feels like your insides are just gonna explode out ’cause you care so much.

You have so many thoughts. , The only people that you can talk to are maybe your coworkers right in the back room when you’re venting, between meetings because you have nowhere else , to get this out even talking to you’re a therapist, right? They don’t work with you.

They don’t. Yeah. Of course they’re gonna be there for you. They’re not gonna judge you for what you say, they don’t understand. And, that is the part there is you can never really get the attention of those in power. You can never feel like you’re being, , listened to

What I had to do is change that entire value set within myself, which is I think good for me and good for people in general, but it shouldn’t have to be like that where it’s like, okay, I have to go work on myself for a year to be able to move through this sector in a healthy way.

Tasha: Well, when is anyone in the sector gonna give themselves that time? It’s never gonna happen. Or usually what I see is people leave the [00:21:00] sector for a year, go and take a for-profit job, find they have time. To think these things and then they come back, right?

Like where they’re , oh, I took a break. Which is sad, but, definitely the reality., So I don’t want to miss out on this opportunity to talk about this cool collaboration that’s happening between, originally we started the nonprofit hive. Now we’re doing this cool community building tool called Community Hives.

And you were one of the first people who was like, I have a dream of what I’d like to see happen in la. So tell us more about the partnership summit and what your group is doing.

Eric: So last year, a couple months after I started with Haven, our CEO came to me and was like, I wanna hold. A summit. And in true, new employee, form, I said yes.

Looking back, I always, it’s funny ’cause I always put out content about how, that’s not the way to do the things.

I want everyone to know that I still do those things all the time. [00:22:00] So what we did though is she had this dream of, she’s been in the nonprofit sector for 15 years.

She was a banker beforehand. She had to claw her way into different meeting rooms and into different stakeholder rooms. And what she really wanted to do was just turn around and give all those connections to our nonprofit partners because we work with over a hundred different organizations to be able to provide wraparound services for clients.

’cause we know that, we’re only working on a very small sliver of their life. And it’s really grown into this larger initiative, that. Is all about collaboration and connection within the nonprofit sector. And right now we’re just piloting this in Los Angeles. We’re hoping one day maybe we could grow and do this elsewhere, but right now we’re just really focused on.

What’s going on here and how we can connect people. I know these conversations happen all the time about , people that start new nonprofits or we don’t need new nonprofits, or we don’t, all this stuff [00:23:00] about recreating the wheel. And I think that’s really where our motivation is okay.

We still want people to create nonprofits. We still want people to come up with new ideas and be innovative, but let’s all be a part of, or at least not be a, maybe not everyone has to have a seat at the table, but we all have to have access to be at the table, you know? And that’s really what we’re trying to do is just provide a platform for those connections.

You don’t have to do it. It’s not a requirement. We don’t want you to have to like, put stake into it kind of thing. We want you to just get in there. If you need to make a connection, you make a connection and you go off and you do what you wanna do.

We’re not putting a paywall in front of it. We’re not, requiring anything from these nonprofits because we feel like that’s the best way for innovation to go forth and be successful. I’m so excited to partner with you guys ’cause I think this is gonna be, [00:24:00] in my completely biased opinion, is gonna be game changing for us.

Because that’s the one thing we hear from our nonprofit partners, especially the small ones, is that they don’t have time. They don’t have time to get out and network and be a part of those conversations that are happening. So we’re like, okay, let us do the footwork, and you just sign or sign up for that 30 minute meeting.

Whether it’s another nonprofit or it’s a funder, or it’s a. Business or just another stakeholder, you could just be a part of that conversation and I feel like very much what you guys are trying to do at the nonprofit high of like, we’re just trying to implement into this little microcosm, of organizations in la

Tasha: I think that’s fantastic.

And the dream still for the nonprofit hive. Is always going to be much more global and the this bigger, higher level, this is nonprofit work, let’s talk about the work. That’s where we’re at and that’s where I [00:25:00] want to stay because that feels like my zone of genius. Yeah.

But I love how you’re taking that idea and instead going. Hey, here’s this microcosm itself, la which to be fair is enormous. So it’s not actually small, not micro. It’s not small. There needs to be these. Smaller areas that start to go, Hey, let’s all talk here.

And you’re right, it needs to be low stakes, but it also needs to be a space where people can be seen because previously earlier in this chat, when you and I were talking about it like, that being seen and being heard. It’s so empowering, right? And it takes you to that next level. Even if the next level is just like a, Hey, we’re friendly.

And now, I saw this grant doesn’t apply to our nonprofit, but it’s perfect for you.

That’s so small, but every time everyone takes those little steps towards that level of collaboration, it does extend further, right? Yeah, it does. It does make a difference we just had a couple of our Hive members and I can see them on LinkedIn [00:26:00] tagging each other and because one person gave some advice on a grant and the other person got it right, and such a small thing to share that moment with each other and that sharing.

But I, I keep thinking. What could stop us, a nonprofit if we started supporting each other deeply and stuff,

Eric: right? Absolutely. And I always go back to, I know we talk about this especially in the fundraising circles, right? We always go back to relationships and that’s just the base of everything.

Humans want relationships, they want to feel cared about, we. Are hardwired to, want that. Of course there’s anomalies. I don’t wanna discount anyone. Like you were saying, like when you, have a partner that, is like, I thought about this for you or whatever, that feels so special.

A grant that I recently had one of our partners that works for a for-profit entity, just emailed a couple of us and was like, Hey, I thought of you guys for this grant., It just came across my desk. And , honestly, normally if I had seen that, on social media or something, it may have just gone by without [00:27:00] attention, right?

But to me it’s like, okay, she thought of us, it just, there’s meaning behind it now. And that’s what’s so important. And I think, that’s why we wanna make, the initiative low stakes, but we also encourage people to put that energy into the relationship. Make it meaningful.

No more of these performative partnerships, make it honest and make it real, because. At the end of the day, we just, we all need to be friendly , and show a little bit.

Tasha: I love that we circled back around to anthropology and primate. And this is how we do at the end of this.

This is so fantastic. Eric, how can people get in touch with you? How can they find out more about the summit? Where can I direct them from this?

Eric: LinkedIn honestly , is everything for us right now. For me, that’s my primary. Platform right now. Especially with the summit, all of our content is on there.

You can also find it at partnership la that will [00:28:00] always be, directing us back towards the summit. And, we want,, anyone that’s interested in being involved, to reach out, we’ll figure out some way to, collaborate. Anything of value or anything is valuable.

That’s what I meant to say.

Tasha: This is fantastic. Thank you so much for doing this with me and just, you’ve been a member for a very long time and it’s just been so cool to kinda continue along and, watch what he’s up to. Also just love the evolution of collaboration for the nonprofit hive with other great groups out there because it’s been really exciting for us.

Eric: Oh my gosh. I feel honestly so honored. I’m like, not only do I have to perform for my organization, but I’m like really? I gotta make them proud too because

Tasha: we’re already proud. We’re already proud your cheerleader okay. I can’t make them regret this. Okay.

Eric: Thank you so much.

Tasha: Thanks.